94. Mary Robinson and the Drama Guild

Hello and welcome back to Adventures in Theater History: Philadelphia.

Today we are continuing and concluding our series of episodes about the history of the Philadelphia Drama Guild, by bringing you again an interview with Mary B. Robinson, who was the Artistic Director of the Drama Guild in the years before its unfortunate, and much lamented, institutional demise in early 1995. We first released this interview with Mary back in the Spring of 2022, and it was the first interview, in fact, we ever tried here on the podcast!

As a brief re-introduction, I will just say that since we talked, Mary’s essential book about the life and work of the director and theater visionary Zelda Fichandler, To Repair the World, was just released last year, published by Routledge. As we shall hear, Zelda was an early and important influence on Mary’s work, as was Mark Lamos the artistic director of Hartford Stage. That was, in fact, the theatre where she became the associate artistic director in the early 1980s.

But this is not the complete conversation that I released then. I’ve made a few internal edits to keep it focused on our current topic. And if you’d like to learn about Mary’s whole life story, her memories about growing up in Philadelphia, and about the early years of her directing career, go back and find it, it’s our Episode 31. But today I’m jumping ahead in that conversation about twenty minutes - so that we pick up the story of the Drama Guild right where we left it last time in our last episode. You’ll remember that in our interview with Gregory Poggi, he told us how left his leadership post at the Drama Guild, and the Board was looking for a new Artistic Director - well, that turned out to be Mary . . .

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Peter Schmitz  And so did they approach you - did they find you or was there a search going on?

Mary B. Robinson  There was a search - and the headhunter was somebody that I knew from Theater Communications Group conferences, and he'd actually approached me about a few other jobs and this one just felt really right to me because it was so close. It was an hour and a half from where we were living in New York. I was newly married by then and did not want to sort of uproot our lives too much and go too far afield. That was important, too. Also, it was in a community I'd grown up in. And so he, you know, he contacted me and then I started interviewing with the search committee and eventually the whole board in the Fall of 1989.

Peter Schmitz  OK, but so by 1990, though, they announced that you were going to use a new artistic director. I've seen . .  I've looked at the newspaper archives, I've seen the articles and although the background of that. And you were married by then to the playwright Eric Brogger, right, and you had  . .  you had met him where?

Mary B. Robinson  Yes, Brogger, yes yes. So we met in 1982 at a playwright conference in Chicago that we were both in. He was, he was. . .  I was working on his play as a dramaturg. He was a wonderful - was and is a wonderful playwright. But he was then teaching at Arizona and I was at Hartford. So, once we both moved back to New York as it happened in 1985, we began dating and then we're married in ‘88.

Peter Schmitz  So, were you looking for something where both of you could go, and where you could both find a bit of a home there?

Mary B. Robinson  Well, I don't know that we were necessarily thinking that he would, you know, he would live full-time in Philly because he was teaching at Hofstra University on Long Island as an adjunct at the same time. Right at the same time I got the job offer to go to Philly he was offered a full-time job at Hofstra. So, we had a split existence. We had a large apartment in Philly, and he kept his studio in the Village and you know, Tuesday morning he would leave Philly and go teach for a few days and come back Thursday evening.

Peter Schmitz  So that's something that . . . I didn't see it covered anywhere in the newspaper archives. It's just a question of your personal life that you have to manage when you're a theater professional.

Mary B. Robinson  Well, you didn't see it in the papers because of course I wasn't talking about it. I very much didn't want  . . .  it was sometimes challenging, but Eric was great and we made it work. Until we had a child at the end of 1992 and it became way more difficult. 

And I will just say I'll just say something - 'cause I do want to talk about the personal aspect, 'cause it's some . .  you know, all these years later - I think especially women, sort of, women are kind of coming forth a little more with, you know, the challenges they faced. I actually did not take the job, once they offered it to me, until I had talked with the head of the search committee about the fact that we were trying to have a child. And I said: “And we're not going to stop trying, so I just have to warn you, I could get pregnant at any time.” And apparently . .  I talked to the headhunter first and said, I'm gonna . . . He said you don't need to tell him that I said I don't need to, but I want to. I don't.  . . So, what is he going to say? “No”? Of course not, you know. But I thought . . and he was apparently kind of embarrassed by this information, but I think they'd figured it out. They knew I was newly married. I was in my mid 30s, you know. So lucky for the Drama Guild, I had two and a half years there before I gave birth. But life became much more difficult because then I was a . .  I mean, I was a single mom for several nights a week. So, but it was, you know, we worked it out the way people did then - and do now.

Peter Schmitz  Right, well, that is a very interesting side of things which I would like to return to when we talk about the overall story of how your tenure at the Drama Guild went. But again, [it was] something I did not see much covered in any of the newspaper archives that I have been through. 

You mentioned right at the start - I did see in the newspaper interviews - that you said you weren't going to have a resident company. But I'd like to hear your memories about specific  . . . the projects that you worked on at the Drama Guild that you produced. So you’re installed as the Artistic Director. Where was your office, where were you working?

Mary B. Robinson  Well, we had offices - not at the Annenberg Center - but on Arch St between, I think, 17th and 8th Street at 18th. Yeah, . . .  just sort of Center City, you know, not too far from the Franklin Institute and so forth. But you know, but it felt like . . the offices did not feel connected with the theater.  To get to the theater we'd have to, you know, get on public transportation or whatever and get out to the Annenberg, so we're all back and forth a lot.

Peter Schmitz  Wow, so did they . . Was there an idea that said: “We're here now, but we want to move to another place eventually.” Was that always in their sights?

Mary B. Robinson  Absolutely, absolutely. And it was part of the discussions when I interviewed for the job. There was even, already in the late 80s, talk of the Avenue of the Arts, and a sense that, you know, what are the performing arts organizations that could find a home there. And because the Drama Guild didn't have its own space but rented out at the Annenberg, we were sort of the prime suspects for it, and the idea of actually being in on the ground floor, of creating - and us also raising money for and then building a theater - was a huge draw. And the Annenberg Center, the Zellerbach Theater, which was a big theater, not a thrust stage, actually, at the time. It was a proscenium that could become a thrust, and we turned it into a thrust we said: we've got to have it. There's such . . .It's so hard to make a connection between actors and audience and a thrust will help. And I was never crazy about the Zellerbach space, but I knew that we were going to be in it for a few years, and you know, really establish ourselves with a certain kind of work and then take that to the Avenue of the Arts, you know, that move.

Peter Schmitz  But what challenges did it have - besides it needing to be converted to a thrust?

Mary B. Robinson  Well, it certainly had acoustical challenges. It was very wide . . .. It was an almost 1000-seat theater and even as a thrust it was very wide. In fact, Zelda Fichandler saw a production I did of Othello there and said she liked the work she said, but the theater is so wide that the energy sort of drains off to the sides.

And she said, “The audience isn't having the experience they should have, even though they may not be aware of what's causing that,” you know? She was absolutely convinced that the space was a problem. And my feeling was, well, the space is a problem if we decide it's a problem. But maybe we can schedule work that really belongs in the space, like Shakespeare (which always did well there), August Wilson, a play like Moon for the Misbegotten, which is a small cast play but very powerful and really held the stage. So, it was a matter of doing work that would connect with the audience in that big sort of cavernous space.

Peter Schmitz Right, there wasn't a separate studio space for you to do smaller productions in?

Mary B. Robinson  Not . . . no, no. Carol Roccamora’s Philadelphia Festival for New Plays – Theater for New Plays - was in the smaller space in the Zellerbach. We did, in our final year there, produce both in the Zellerbach and in a theater nearby, which was a smaller space, and I loved that. But there is also some speculation that that could be one reason people didn't resubscribe 'cause they didn't want to go to that space.

Peter Schmitz  Right.

Mary B. Robinson  So that's  . . you know, who knows?

Peter Schmitz  Well, let's talk specifically about things that you programmed and that you're working on, I'm. I'm selecting just some of the many plays you directed there. But one of your early productions was Boseman and Lena by Athol Fugard. Why did you choose that production early on?

Mary B. Robinson  Well, I felt it was a play that could really hold that big space because it's a small play with three characters, but it's about large things. It's about homelessness and male/female relationships. It's sizable and it has impact. I think a lot of people felt it was maybe not the right play to open with, but I was going to do a Shakespeare play, Midsummer Night's Dream, later. And I did not feel I had time to prepare it, because I was off doing other, you know, fulfilling other directing commitments, until August of the year I arrived there. So it was . .  but I think maybe . .  I loved working on it . . I worked with Seret Scott, who played Lena - terrific actor who now directs a lot and a wonderful human being. I think some people were really moved by it and some people just went: “I couldn't get the accents. I couldn't connect to it. I didn't feel . . WHAT? Why is she doing this?”  [Laughs] So, and even some people on the Board said, “This was really powerful, but I don't know about it being in the very first slot of your first season.”

Peter Schmitz  Oh well.

Mary B. Robinson  Oh, and one other thing I'll just say: the Wilma had a reputation for doing Fugard. And there was a little bit of questioning: “Well, well, why is she doing this? This isn't what the Drama Guild does.” And I so resisted that. I thought: “No, you can't define us like that. I really love this play and want to produce and direct it.” 

Peter Schmitz  And your mindset still is: “I'm looking at this artistically. This is where I am going to go as an artist and I'm going to explore this work and I'm inviting you to come along with me.”

Mary B. Robinson  Yes, exactly

Peter Schmitz  “That's  . . . that's who you hired.”

Mary B. Robinson  Yep, exactly right!

Peter Schmitz  But you also are bringing in . .  you brought in your husband’s play, A Novel Life, which is about, as I understand - I have not seen it - So it's about a Jewish-American family, am I right about that?

Mary B. Robinson  That’s right, it's actually called A Normal Life and it's  . .  

Peter Schmitz  Forgive me, I wrote this down wrong . . .

Mary B. Robinson  That's OK, no that's OK. And it was.  . . .we had done it at Seattle the previous summer. That's what I was busy doing until  . . . and I wanted to do it.  It was adapted from short stories by Delmore Schwartz.

It was a beautiful, tender, funny family play which just did wonderfully in Seattle, and which I really wanted to. . .  I wanted to do a new play at . . . in my first season, and I read a lot of plays and didn't like any of them as much as this. And so I finally said to the Board, look, do you think that I shouldn't do this because I'm married to the playwright? And they said: “No, if you feel this is a play that you know belongs in this space and that you really want to do, go for it.”  So I did. It was  . . . it actually worked really well on the Zellerbach stage, and the . .  It was a lovely rehearsal period both in Seattle and in the . .  and in Philly. The problem with that was: We opened the night that the first Gulf War started, and literally people were walking into the theater, listening to radios. And I had to make a curtain speech, we knew the bombs were about to fall, I mean, everybody's mind was on that. And so that was tough. And you know that kind of colored the run for us but the . . .  You know a lot of people did write me and say how much they really enjoyed it, and I never  . .  . I always felt very proud of the fact that we did it. It was just the timing was weird.

Peter Schmitz  Yeah, but so you go on to do a number of Shakespeares, including Othello and Midsummer Night's Dream. But I want to talk about a production of Macbeth you did - and you cast Andre Braugher, who was then recently out of Julliard. But I was not aware that he’d come down here to do Macbeth, rather early in his career.  Now talk about that, why you really wanted him in there and what you wanted to do with that production? 

Mary B. Robinson  Yeah, well, it was kind of hot on the heels of the Midsummer Night's Dream that I did. And, you know, as I said, maybe I did another Shakespeare too soon afterwards. Because you really do need time to let, you know, those plays sit with you. 

Andre’s then girlfriend - now wife - Ami Brabson was in Midsummer. So he had come to Midsummer. I auditioned him, and you know many other actors, for Macbeth - and just thought he was absolutely terrific. I believe he was only 29 at the time. He was very young, but he just had an authority and a charisma and a command of the stage and the language and the role . . . And so it was, you know what we then called “color blind casting”. You know, I don't think there. . . I think people have long since realized there is no such thing. You know, and it was, you know. And so it was an interesting I . . A good friend of mine, said Clarence Thomas was having his, you know, hearings at the time and somebody said it made her think of that - it was like you know, everybody sort of brought to it what they wanted to. But my point was: the reason I’m casting him was that I thought he was by far the most exciting actor in the role.

Peter Schmitz   But this was before he had a large reputation in television, before he began doing TV shows, he thinks that if you had brought him in . . .

Mary B. Robinson  That's right, that's right, yes.

Peter Schmitz   . . post his television success there would have been a different reaction in Philadelphia.

Mary B. Robinson  Well, well to be honest, I didn't do a great job of that play. I will just be . .

Peter Schmitz  Oh!

Mary B. Robinson  I, I, I,  . . You know it's uh . .  it's uh . . . it's one of the best Shakespeare plays to read, but it's a really hard one to do. And I've often seen not very good productions of Macbeth. Which, you know, I kind of learned the hard way. That yeah . .  I didn't have enough time. You know we never had enough rehearsal time. I think I made some. . . .We made some design decisions. . . .  I mean, I've worked with great teams. So there's nothing against any of the actors or the designers. I think I did not run the ship as well as I ran the Midsummer Night's Dream and Othello. 

I actually did Macbeth at Juilliard a few years ago, and Andre [Braugher]’s and Amy [Brabson]’s son was there, and I said to him he wasn't in it. He was a little. Older, but he saw it. And he said to me how much he'd enjoy it. And I really thought I did a good job with that one, with no budget whatsoever. You know, just people in the room. I said: “Oh yeah, the last time I directed this was 27 years ago and both your parents were in it.”

Peter Schmitz   [Laughs] “But I figured it out now!”

Mary B. Robinson  Yes, exactly. Yes!

Peter Schmitz  You also programmed two one-act plays by Milcha Sanchez-Scott. Who is a playwright whose work I'm not familiar with. But she was . .  she's . .  Uh, as we would say a Latinx playwright (but that wasn't the term that was in vogue back then). Why did you want to bring her work to the Drama Guild?

Mary B. Robinson  Well, I had worked with her at the Sundance Institute in Utah in 1986. I was invited out there to work on a play and I immediately said ‘yes’ not even having read the play. You know two weeks in the mountains of Utah - what could be better? And the play was not this one, but another one by Milcha. And it was just this beautiful play that we loved working on together. So, you know, she was one of the writers I really wanted to bring.

These were not new plays, but she came and you know, worked with us on them and it was just a totally different voice that nobody in Philly knew. And we had, you know, a wonderful . .  again, a wonderful design team. Alan Moyer was there - I was working with a lot of the time – he did this amazing thing with this play The Cuban Swimmer, which was one of the two plays where there is this boat eight feet up in the air, a swimmer eight feet up in the air, near him on a platform. And just an amazing coup de theatre which we pulled off - and Magic Realism is the vein she wrote, and writes, in.

So again, I don't know that they attracted huge audiences, but I felt very proud to have done them.

Peter Schmitz  And then three other plays . . .  that I've written down here, which are more recognizable and standard.  . . Misanthrope by Moliere: classic French, serious sort of moral comedy. You do Dancing at Lughnasa, which is the great Brian Friel play, which was a big hit on Broadway. You’d think that would have a lot of  . . . you know, attract a lot of interest, if there’s anyone who's interested in Irish theater. And then an American classic, Of Mice and Men. 

So, but, by that time were you dealing (I'm going to bring this back in there) . . .  were you dealing with the fact that you were beginning to start a family?

Mary B. Robinson  Yes, in fact, those  . . .  with Misanthrope and Dancing at Lughnasa I have very . . .  but my most vivid memories of them are having to do with the fact that I was seven months pregnant. With Misanthrope, I sat there on opening night and Christopher was kicking a great deal - I didn't know he was Christopher yet, but it was like he was excited to be there too! Dancing at Lughnasa, he was ten months old and during one of the . . .  During tech week when Eric had to be up teaching at Hofstra, a babysitter we would use regularly got sick and I had to bring him to tech with me. And that's, you know, a very vivid memory of, like, you know, Alan Moyer, the set designer, put him to bed and one of the, you know, dressing rooms and we took a little baby monitor and put it on the stage manager’s table. He . . [Laughs]  it was very  . . . a lot of people who had families there at the time, and the fact that I was the Artistic Director meant that I did not feel self-conscious that I had to do this. It was just . . it was what it was. And Dancing at Lughnasa was a production I was extremely proud of and it did incredibly well. It was at the beginning of the time when we were having some difficulties. And so the fact that it did so well at the start of the ’93-‘94 Season was a big plus for us.

Peter Schmitz  It had a lot of single ticket, or “walk-up” ticket sales, people were coming just to see that, . . . 

Mary B. Robinson  Exactly, that's right.

Peter Schmitz   . . they, even if they weren't part of the subscription. OK, so the . . .  you were also beginning to work on work you weren't personally directing, but you were programming work by August Wilson, including Joe Turner's Come and Gone . . .

Mary B. Robinson  Yes.

Peter Schmitz  You brought in Walter Dallas, who was at that point a local Philadelphia director. He was working at the . .  in Philadelphia. He was the head of the drama program at UArts. He's a well-known person in town. So, you brought . . .  and he knew . . . he had worked on August Wilson many times, he was  . . 

Mary B. Robinson  Actually not. I don't think he had. 

Peter Schmitz  Not by that time?

Mary B Robinson  No, I think his first August Wilson was Joe Turner.

Peter Schmitz  Oh! OK, yeah.

Mary B Robinson  Yeah. He’d worked at the Drama Guild a few times and I actually went up to Yale to see  . . . he did a show up at Yale Rep and I went to see that to get to because I'd gotten to know him, and I wanted to get to know his work, because I hadn't seen him at the Drama Guild. And, you know, we were just incredibly lucky that this phenomenal director lived and worked in Philadelphia. The following year we brought him in to do Spunk - a Zora Neale Hurston adaptation - and then he did Two Trains Running. And was supposed to do Of Mice and Men actually, which was . . .  which ended up being our last production. But he was . .  because of his great . . . the great productions he did of the two August Wilson plays he was  . . . Lloyd Richards got sick and he was invited to do the world premiere of Seven Guitars out in Chicago, which he did.

Peter Schmitz  I see. But he'd also . . .  the theater had received a special grant to support him. You got a big . .  a million dollar grant, it said  . . .$1,000,000 grant from the Lila Acheson Wallace . . 

Mary B. Robinson  That's right, that's right.

Peter Schmitz   . . . Foundation, you know?

Mary B. Robinson  Well, but we were, but he was already directing with us once a year before he got the . . and honestly, I think a lot of the reason we got the grant was because we had Walter. And the grant enabled us to pay him a salary to be on the artistic staff - as opposed to simply, you know, a sort of an unofficial resident director, and, you know, good friend. The other things we did with the grant were, you know, a lot of, you know, community outreach efforts and [we] hired somebody especially for that: Marcia Pendleton. You know, yeah, we were a number of . .  that was a huge, huge thing for us because we had already been making efforts in that direction. And that's what the grant recognized.

Peter Schmitz  Yeah, I noticed from the newspaper articles I've been scanning that you - from the beginning - you were making very explicit statements saying, “We need to do a more diverse type of work, we need to be employing a broad variety of artists, we want to be involved with other communities besides the communities that the Drama Guild had traditionally been serving.” You were looking to expand the repertoire, you're looking to expand the audiences, you were looking to expand the type of material you were working on. Can you talk about your philosophy? That was . . . that is so much in the news now, but this is an old conversation as well. It’s been in the forefront for a long time.

Mary B. Robinson  Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And it's even older than the 1990s . . 

Peter Schmitz  Of course.

Mary B. Robinson   . . . because all of that was based on, obviously, personal belief, but the experience that I had at Hartford Stage. Because Mark Lamos and Bill Stewart as the Managing Director and I really, really, worked at Hartford to just make sure that the work was not all White. Just to be, you know, to include, you know, African American voices, playwrights. You know, to cast . . . as I said, colorblind casting (nontraditional casting as we called it back then) the classic plays. You know, we were really, we.  . .  I mean there's yes, this is a conversation that's been going on for decades. That's, you know, it's very much on the front burner now. As it should be, and as it should have been all along. But so, I just basically carried that philosophy, which I was very rooted in, into the Drama Guild.

Peter Schmitz  There was an intention to build a relationship with the local Black audience in Philadelphia, and by that time Philadelphia had, within the city itself, I think, by that point, had a larger African American population than it did a White population and again it had a significant Latino population, a significant Asian population . .  How did that go? How did you  . . . you were putting distinct efforts into it. What happened?

Mary B. Robinson  But you know? Really, I mean it . . .  it  . . . you know, single ticket-wise it was incredibly exciting. When we would do an August Wilson play or Spunk. And by the way, they were incredibly well done by Walter. I mean they were absolutely the rival of the New York productions - no question. Wendell Pierce played the lead in Joe Turner, 26 years old, unknown at the time, you know it was really . . . those were really superb productions that I was so proud to be associated with. And the single ticket buyers - lots and lots of African American theatergoers came to those. And the point of the Lila Wallace grant was: Can we, you know, turn single ticket buyers into subscribers? That's much harder to do and every theater around the country, I think, who has made these attempts has found that. That's not in and of itself a bad thing, but it's uh, but it's a challenge. Subscription is, yeah  . . . 

Peter Schmitz  What first, why was that? So, by this point you must have been getting schooled a lot because you were having . . the subscription rate kept falling, as I read from these articles. Each year you would have a drop in the number of regular subscribers - and I'm assuming these were mainly the older subscribers, and mainly White subscribers, who were often coming in from the suburbs. Were those the people you were losing?

Mary B. Robinson  Do you know, we never knew. I think it would have been so good if we could have done a survey about, well, who are losing? Why are we losing them? I mean, before I even mounted a single play, I got a phone message from somebody when I announced the first plays we were doing, which were Midsummer Night's Dream and Boseman and Lena. They said: “You've got to do plays by Miller and Williams from the 30s.” And I kind of laughed to myself like: “They didn't write plays in the 30s!” But in fact, I think that's what the audience may have wanted. Was just more . . .  Now, I have to say I think the subscription audience loved the August Wilson plays, because they're very accessible. And so, I don't think we were losing subscribers for that reason. 

But we were losing subscribers for the reasons that, you know, we were still doing, you know, new unfamiliar plays, in addition to the . . . I mean, the Shakespeare always sold really well, and got great school groups and so forth. Honestly, Peter, the problem is we never really did find out why we lost subscribers. And it wasn't . . .  sometimes because we actually . .  the attrition rate was not so bad after our weakest season, which was the ‘93-‘94 season. So go figure. . . maybe it was the ‘92-‘93 season, excuse me! So, you know, maybe it was they didn't want to see the plays that we were about to do. I don't know. Maybe they . . you know, we just never really found that out.

Peter Schmitz  You . .  so nowadays you might have called in a Consulting Group, and they would have done a focus group, where you've got all these demographic breakdowns . . .

Mary B. Robinson  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Peter Schmitz   . . but that type of data mining wasn't necessarily available back then.

Mary B. Robinson  Well, I mean, we didn't have the Internet back then. A lot of things have been made much, much easier. You know we had to do everything with phone calls and writing, you know. I guess we started to have the Internet in the 90s, but not the way we do now.

Peter Schmitz  No.

Mary B. Robinson  And in fact, you know, this is maybe skipping ahead a little bit, but I did. . . .  I did feel when we had the really precipitous drop after the ‘93-‘94 season, which was the strongest season of all artistically and in terms of single ticket sales, we were kind of going “OK. Finally, you know, we're really on track!” And that was the year that started with Dancing at Lughnasa, had Two Trains Running  - huge, huge hit and also Othello, which did very well. And so then 50% of the audience didn't want to come back! And we could not figure it out. And I said to the Board, “Let's do a survey, and if it's because of the work, then I'll step down.” Because I didn't, I don't, you know, water down the work. I'm trying to do the most populist plays I can really get behind as an artistic director, but what I said was: “We're all guessing. We don't know why the subscription rate is so low. So, once we find out, then we'll know what to do.”

Peter Schmitz  Then what did . . .  Did anyone parse it at the time? At that point, the Walnut is beginning to increase its subscription rate exponentially. It's the (correct me [if I’m wrong]) very local-audience based on “It’s old,” you know, it's: “We can sell the fact that this is the city's Oldest Theater” - even though it had been very much architecturally transformed. It would sell its reputation. “This is where . .  this is Real Philadelphia” or location. And when I read accounts of what older audience members who are regular subscribers are, they go, “You know what's great there? The parking. . . you can park right next to the theater. Just walk over!” People who are coming from out . . .  at that point, there wasn't a large number of people living in the city itself.

Mary B. Robinson  That's right.

Peter Schmitz  Now there's a lot of people who are empty nesters who are returning, and they're building huge new apartment buildings in Center City. And they move back to Center City - and they can walk just a few blocks to a theater. But then it was always a question of where you're going with your car, where you're putting your automobile. And the fact that they .. . .  it reassures them so much. You can park right next to the theater and walk right over. 

Mary B. Robinson  Yeah.

Peter Schmitz  And, but at the Zellerbach there is, I think, a . . parking garage across the street which you have to cross this busy street to get there. There's no real neighborhood there. Did that . .  Anyone mention things like that?

Mary B. Robinson  I mean, yes, we all thought that it was a very big part of it. We absolutely did. And I will say the other thing that happened in the final year, which we never did finish, which was the ’94-‘95 year. We finally decided that we were not going to be stuck in the Zellerbach. We were going to do three shows in the Zellerbach, which were the right shows, the big shows. And we rented the space at MTI, which I don't remember where that stands for, but it's a converted church. Right in the same neighborhood, just around the corner. You could even park in the same place, but it had church pew seating and you know, maybe 500. So we would do the 1st, 3rd and 5th show in the Zellerbach, and the 2nd and 4th show at MTI with slightly longer runs, to accommodate the subscribers.

It is very possible that a number of subscribers went: “I don't want to be uprooted like that. I like my seats in the Zellerbach. I've been there for years. It's familiar. Where are you making me go, I don't know where this place is.” We never, again, that was, that is a very possible reason. One of  . . . one reason why the subscription rates were low, because they looked at the brochure and they went: “Wait, they're doing some shows - not in Zellerbach, no thanks.”

Peter Schmitz  And, and the . .  let's return to this question again: You were able to attract Black theatergoers, on an individual rate, to come see the shows that appeal to them, but that didn't tend to transfer over into subscriptions . . . 

Mary B. Robinson  That's right.

Peter Schmitz   . . they weren't going to do that.

Mary B. Robinson  That's right.

Peter Schmitz  So, like, it wasn’t something they needed, or wanted to, support on a broader basis.

Mary B. Robinson  That's right. Yes, and I will say one other thing that I'll say and this is . . .  this is something I've sort of kept to myself, but I am thinking about it. So the final year, the plays - we announced four: Ain't Misbehavin’ - you know, the Fats Waller musical. We felt that it was, you know, doing a musical would sell tickets. And I thought, OK, it's got to be something I really want to do. That's a small, very interesting, delightful piece.

Peter Schmitz  It’s fun!

Mary B. Robinson  We . . .  later on, Walter Dallas was going to direct Of Mice and Men. And then we also did this play by Mustafa Matura, a Caribbean playwright, that Seret Scott was going to direct, called Meetings. 

So our then our Board president, in a one-on-one meeting, said to me, “I wonder if the subscription rate is low because our subscribers think you're doing too much Black work.” And I said “No, no, absolutely not.” And he said, “Well, Walter is directing Of Mice . .” And I said, “But you know, he's doing Of Mice and Men! It’s just, you know, Walter Dallas shouldn't have to just do the “African American Slot,” right? But you know, but two of the five plays were all-African American casts. You know, at the time I was sort of appalled that he would even suggest this, and now I think: “Well, I suppose.” . . . We shouldn't . . He said, at the time, “There are a lot of prejudiced people out there.” And I thought, you know, 'cause I was . .  I was very, very resisting of that as a possibility. But, again: We don't know, and even if we did the survey, we might not have found that out, but .. . 

Peter Schmitz  Right, well, reading. . .  that would be my guess. I mean, again I wasn't there, and I wasn't paying attention to it at the time - what was going on in Philadelphia. But looking back over what I find in the journalistic record, It's . .  into that, but I haven't found an article that explicitly addresses that, yet. Maybe I just haven't read the right thing.

Mary B. Robinson  No, I mean no, I don't think any article would. Because I don't think people would, you know, if people weren't re-subscribing . . . they would not  . .  They might say: “I didn't think the plays looked all that interesting” or something.

Peter Schmitz  Right.

Mary B. Robinson  They would not . .  they would not come out with that.

Peter Schmitz  It was just a club that they didn't feel like they wanted to belong to, right?

Mary B. Robinson  Possibly, but that, but that's interesting that that's something that occurred to you too, yeah.

Peter Schmitz  Yeah no, I  . . definitely. I mean, I grew up in America. So, I suspect that I know what’s there. So, let's, let’s . . .  I want to go through this quickly because I know it's a big thing in your memory, but it's important. At some point they told you that they weren't going to renew your contract, at that point.

Mary B. Robinson  Well, I kind of got wind of it at the Board meeting in which I said we needed to do a survey. And that, you know, that we were all guessing that there were all sorts of possible reasons. So, let's find out the actual reason or reasons, and then if the work is the problem, I would step aside. So  . . and they all kind of nodded. And then they acted as if I'd already resigned, at that meeting. 

So, I saw this coming. And I actually called Zelda Fichandler, whom I knew somewhat - not very well. She had left Arena in ‘91 and she was then the, as you know, the Head of the Graduate Acting Program at NYU. She had - and has - one of her sons lived in Philly, and she had seen some of the work. And weighed in on the Zellerbach, and she had me fax (because we faxed back then) my artistic statement. You know - several pages! And, and to her. And then we talked  . . My recollection is we talked most days for about a week. And she was incredibly helpful about how I should conduct myself at these board meetings and not be apologetic, but insist that they do the survey. And it wasn't . .  It was amazing what she told me, and if I'd heard it a few weeks sooner, I always feel, maybe the outcome would have been the same, but I would have felt better about my role in it all. 

So I was asked to have a one-on-one lunch meeting with the Board President. And I kind of went in armed with Zelda's, you know, words ringing in my ears. And he said: “We don't want to renew you.” The end of it. Anyway, he said, you know, complimentary things about the work. He said, “It's not attracting the subscriber . . .  the subscription numbers we need and so we have to make a change.”

And I said: “OK, but because we've just come off a strong season, I think this is going to be perceived as, you know, a bad move, bad, very bad timing because . . .” And he said: “Well, you have to say you've resigned. We don't want to, we don't want it to be known that we're firing you.” And I refused. 

And I said: “I'm a very bad liar. I don't know what reason we would give. And, you know, I won't badmouth the company. I won't talk about, you know, I won't. . .  I won't say things that will endanger the Drama Guild.” He said: “Well, I don't think the theater will survive unless you say you've resigned.” And I I said, “I can't do that. I'm sorry. I will, you know, do whatever else you need me to do to kind of keep the theater going. I don't want it to go under. But I can't do that.” 

And then they gave me a press release a few days later that said I decided to resign. And I absolutely hit the ceiling and  . . as I felt I was, you know, I had to tell the staff, I had to, you know it was. . . It was tough. It was tough. It was tough to walk the tightrope of Let's Not Blame Them. They're doing What They Feel They Need To Do. This is what's happening. We'll get through this. But then when I saw this, I . .  I . .  I said, I . . .  I said: “I wouldn't say this. And you can't . . you cannot say that I've . . . That I'm voluntarily resigning. Because I'm not.” 

So, it went out. 

Peter Schmitz  It would have been easy for you, because you had a young child at that point, just to say, “well, I've got  . . I'm raising my family”, but that would have put a different narrative on it, you know? “Female Artistic Director Can't Handle Children and Work at the Same Time.”

Mary B. Robinson  Exactly, that was in the back of my mind. And the other thing was: my mother had died.

She was, um, had an illness that was terminal, and we brought her down to Philly in the fall of ‘93. Right when Dancing at Lughnasa closed. She was in a nursing home right near the offices of the Drama Guild. So, in the ’93-‘94 season - which happened to be a very strong season artistically - you know, I was also taking care of my mother. Not on a daily basis, not physically, but you know, emotionally and mentally, and, you know, all those things. She died in March ‘94, right when Two Trains Running opened. 

And everybody . . . a lot of people knew this that I was dealing with, you know, the . . . the recent loss of a parent, plus a child who was still less than two years old, plus running this theater. And I absolutely resisted saying “leaving for personal reasons.” Because it didn't feel fair to pretend that I couldn't handle it, when in fact I felt I was handling it quite well. And I also then subsequently thought: “And it wouldn't have been fair to future women who want this kind of job.” 

So, unfortunately, I do feel they were probably right. That if I'd played along, and said I resigned, maybe they would have made a go of it. I'm not sure though, because there was no artistic director to raise. . .  You know, they had to start this emergency fundraising campaign. And there's no Artistic Director or artistic direction to do it with . .  and then I would be asked: “Well, what did you feel about this?” And I would have to play it very neutral and say: “Well, it's alarming. We didn't renew our subscribers, so this is what the board felt they needed to do.” And not comment on it. But I didn't pretend that had been my idea, no.

Peter Schmitz  Right. Wow. So, where . .  did you leave Philadelphia at that point, did you go back to New York?

Mary B. Robinson  No, no, we didn't. Once again, not for another year, actually . .  it's interesting, actually Eric had gotten very fond of Philadelphia and the neighborhood. It was difficult. I thought . . . by the way, I took over Of Mice and Men. That was our last project, which was a wonderful . . .  Because I didn't want the theater to close, and I thought if I could do a strong production of that.  . .  That wasn't . .  so that was kind of the swan song. And then the theater closed in the winter of ‘95. 

No, I directed a play at the Manhattan Theatre Club later that winter/spring and I commuted. It was kind of crazy. And then that same play that at Manhattan Theatre Club. And then Sara Garonzik invited me to do [a play], at Philadelphia Theatre Company in the fall of ‘95. That was Three Viewings by Jeffrey Hatcher. And that was the first play I did at the Philadelphia Theatre Company. And then we moved to New York, to Brooklyn. Sarah brought me back repeatedly to the Philadelphia Theatre Company.

Peter Schmitz  Which is . . . thank you for bringing her name, because she's  . . because here's another local female artistic director, who had herself been through a near-death experience with her own company. She, her company nearly folded in ’89. She'd managed to bring it back. It was then still at the Plays and Players, right? Now . . .  so still in its original space.

Mary B. Robinson  Yes, yes, that's right.

Peter Schmitz  It hadn't moved to the larger space yet. But she was . . .  it sounds like she came in to support you and find you things to do in Philadelphia right away, because she was like: “You’re available? I'll use you.”

Mary B. Robinson  Yeah, well I think she. . . she actually asked me to do . . . I think she saw Three Viewings in New York and said she wanted to bring it to Philly with me directing and I first said: “No I've just done it.” You know? But then as it became clear, we're going to stay in Philly longer, I thought, well, why not? I can cast it with some local actors, and I loved working on it. Working on some more of . . .  The playwright came. And that started, you know, Sarah and I knew each other as, you know, as peers and friends. But that started just a wonderful working and friend relationship for gosh, I think it was 20, more than 20 years that I worked there on a fairly  . . . I did 10 plays over a period of 20 years there.

Peter Schmitz  Right. So overall, now . . . You had such, uh, you have such a long perspective on the history of Philadelphia theater. When you look at where Philadelphia is now, as opposed to where Philadelphia was as you were becoming aware of the theater world. . . .  Philadelphia in the 1960s and 70s was still very much a try-out town for New York. So, there were always big stars coming in, always big productions coming. And Philadelphia audiences seem to have expected that in terms of their entertainment, and that's  . . .  I've heard that mentioned as a reason why there was no large bastion regional theater company in Philadelphia, that there was in other large theater cities, because of its proximity to New York. Would you feel that's a fair analysis?

Mary B. Robinson  I definitely think so. I think Philadelphia audiences saw themselves, as . . .  I sometimes felt when I was there that, you know, that there was some work that was done that was, I thought, as good as if not better than - I mean the Two Trains Running and the Joe Turner, right, for starters - as good as the productions I saw in New York, which were also terrific. But I felt that there is sometimes a little bit of a, well, because of the proximity to New York, you know, maybe on the part of some people. I don't want to generalize, but a lack of understanding that the homegrown work here, whether it's, you know, actors from Philly, New York, both, a combination . . . can be just as good as the New York work. Just because it's here doesn't mean it's inferior. 

I also think that by the time I came along in 1990 there were a lot of very, uh, grassroots theaters, like People’s Light, like Wilma. The Arden was starting out. Philadelphia Theater Company, as you say, came back.  . .  You know, really made this amazing comeback, you know there were other theaters in the Philadelphia area that were doing really vital, exciting work. 

And there may have been less of a feel[ing] that there is a necessity to have this kind of flagship theater. As opposed to the Arena. You know when it started out, that was the only game in town for 30 years 35 years. As opposed to Hartford, where now there's the Hartford Theaterworks, but when I was there in the 80s there was nothing except some college theater and community theater in Hartford. So Philadelphia did have other options. And I think that . .  not unfortunately, through their Drama Guild, but through these other theaters . . . . I absolutely feel in the decades since I've been gone from, you know, living and working in Philly, the audiences, you know, grow loyal to a specific theater, a specific company, a specific aesthetic, a specific location.

I think that there is . . . I remember Dan Shay, our managing director. When I first arrived, said as we looked at these terrible subscription numbers, we hadn't put on a single play, he said, “I think the support for the Drama Guild is very widespread, but only a quarter of an inch deep.” And I think there was a lot to that. I also think that these other theaters I just mentioned had found, in the years since, that their audiences are very loyal to them and identify with them and feel a part of a community when they go there. And I I think it was hard to create a community at the Zellerbach and the Annenberg. Again, I take some of the blame [for] that on myself. I feel as if I did a fair amount of things the first couple of years and started some . . . . launched some initiatives. It did, I will just say candidly . .  it became more difficult when my personal life got so crowded with .. . You know, my mother and our son. I couldn't be out and about as often as I was in the first couple of years. But I think that Philadelphia did . . .  just from what I've seen . . being at the Philadelphia Theatre Company, you know, back there over the period of 20 years. It was very exciting to see the audiences recognize that “this is created just for you” aspect of the other productions done at these various theaters.

Peter Schmitz  Well,  that is all such wonderful insight on what's going throughout Philadelphia. Let's just wrap up the interview with what happened then in the rest of your life. You moved to Brooklyn – you and your husband are both on the faculty? . . . 

Mary B. Robinson  I I taught for many years at NYU. I ran an undergraduate directing program at NYU. I also have taught - I did that for 18 years, and simultaneously, for now 23 years, I've taught in the MFA Directing Program at Brooklyn College. But sometimes I direct off-Broadway in New York - but not nearly as often as I directed in academic training programs and at the Philadelphia Theatre Company.

Peter Schmitz  Right. Well, Mary, thank you so much. This has been more than I could have ever asked for in terms of your openness, your insight and the information you've been able to share with us. Our listeners are very grateful for you joining us today and for your generosity of spirit in doing this interview with us. So I'm going to . . 

Mary B. Robinson  My pleasure.

Peter Schmitz  . . Thank you.

__________________________

So that was the interview with Mary Robinson we recorded in the Spring of 2022. Listening back to it now, I notice many things - For instance, most particularly that Mary and I referred to the great actor Andre Braugher, and of course that was a year before Andre suddenly and tragically passed away, gone all too young and all too soon. But aside from a few things like that, on the whole, I felt like this old recording fit right in with the ongoing story we are telling in this Season Four, the Rise of Modern Philadelphia Theater.

I’m not exactly sure, as of this writing and recording, exactly what our next stop on our overall narrative will be - what story I’ll be telling next, or what interview I’ll be bringing you, what Episode 95 will be here on the podcast. 

All right, I’m going to switch tones here, ‘cause this is serious. . . 

It’s a little hard to concentrate right now, in fact, as I am putting this together at the beginning of February 2025 - because . . . and here I wave my arm out the window at a literal conflagration of current events - the world is on fire, and the fate of my nation hangs in the balance. 

I know I have listeners all over the world and they are probably wondering, if History is happening OUTSIDE MY WINDOW -  can’t I at least look up and notice it? Is he ok? 

Thank you. I can only say to all of you - youre right. And in many ways I’m not OK. But that’s where so many of us are in America right now - desperately trying to preserve our sanity, trying to hang on to what is normal, what is good, what we love about our country. Even as others here try to turn a most hideous version of America outwards toward the rest of the world, and try to undermine the very institutions and freedoms that I thought made us something special on this Earth. 

Even as that goes on, one of the things I can do - not the only thing I can do, but one of the things I can do  - I can continue to assert the dignity and the love and the joy and the value of this topic - this very small but very fine and lovely thing - that I am trying to document and to preserve. This is the task I set for myself. I may not be able to keep it up - I have students to teach, a book to sell, and soon - I’m gonna be in a play about America and its history - I’ll tell you all about that soon, I hope. You’re gonna hear more about it anyway, I think. If this goes the way I think it might. I’ll try to keep doing all those things at once. I may have to set this podcast aside for a bit. But I’ll come back to it, I promise. Don’t you lose faith, and I won’t either.

Thank you for understanding. Thank you for joining me, once again, on another Adventure in Theater History: Philadelphia.